Curse

Hello Thar · Jul 15, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Seriously, there is soooo many ways to counter them, it's ridiculous! I'm not saying that warriors suck... But they are simply outclassed! Every profession has atleast 5 ways to counter a warrior, and a warrior has very few ways to counter these counters.

Most people won't attack Warrior first, so his armor is near useless. There is nothing you can do about this, but the fact that Warrior's damage isn't anything special doesn't help at all.

They can't compete with an Elementalist for damage, yet an elementalist doesn't even have to be close to the foe to attack.

It seems everysingle class is an Anti-Warrior, yet a Warrior is an Anti-Nothing (nothing has a particular weakness to warriors).

I don't know why you made them so underpowered, but please fix it!

Racthoh · Jul 15, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I would post your warrior's build and then complain about damage. I have no problem taking down enemies with both haste and ease when I solo with my warrior.

Malchiel · Jul 15, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

I think he might mean PvP =_=

In PvE the mobs are too dumb, and warriors are actually one of the best PvE classes.

BigTru · Jul 15, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Err... I don't think he's really complaining about the damage, just the fact that he's too lazy to run up to the enemy ~_~

He's right when he says the damage isn't special - It's balanced with Necro, Ranger, and Monk. Sometimes they will outdamage you, sometimes you will outdamage them.

Hello Thar · Jul 15, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

PvP just seems like a battle of rangers and casters. I find it highly dissapointing that they completely left out Melee in the mix.

mvpberto · Jul 15, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

how can you say there outmatched by any class seriously in tombs no other class would 1vs1 against a warrior without having a monk there healing them a hammer unless maybe your a ranger i dont see any mesmer, necro, ele,monk being able to kill a decent W/E Knockdown/aftershock there armors are to weak and with hammer your doing around 60-70 points of dmg each hit

Hello Thar · Jul 15, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

I never said anything about 1 vs 1. Every class in this game is better than warrior at PvP. Warriors can be countered too easily. Almost every class (save Necroe, I believe) has a skill that lowers melee hit rate by 75%. Couple that with the fact that they can easily be blinded and have weakness applied.

I'll take your word for it, you do 60-70 hit each time every time when you hit, but how are you going to hit when you are dealing with blindness, ward against melee, and a spell or stance that lowers your hit rate by 75%? Couple that with the Hammers slow attack rate, you have easily and effectively been shut down (keep and mind these skills are usually spammable).

Thomasuwoo · Jul 15, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

My main tombser is and Aftershock Hammer warrior. Eldorian Swiftshot is her name if anyone here has come across her. I usually call targets for the team since I have alot less to do then the other people on my team. My usuall tactioc is to charge right into the enimes front lines. Two things usualy happen.
1. I get the crap beaten out of me but rarely enough so as our monk can't heal me in time. When this happens alot of the enime tewam has wasted it's firepower trying to get though my armour instead of going for the spellcasters.
2. They enime team will ignore me and go for a caster. I then procede to the nearest caster or monk and give him such a pounding

.

Another great thing is that eldorian has the power to solo a enime preist dead in 25 secconds. Alot of the time I'll break away from my team (Warning them on TS of course) and having a quick scout around. Any unguarded prests in the area are quicckly delt with.

Thomasuwoo · Jul 15, 2005, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hello Thar

I never said anything about 1 vs 1. Every class in this game is better than warrior at PvP. Warriors can be countered too easily. Almost every class (save Necroe, I believe) has a skill that lowers melee hit rate by 75%. Couple that with the fact that they can easily be blinded and have weakness applied.

I'll take your word for it, you do 60-70 hit each time every time when you hit, but how are you going to hit when you are dealing with blindness, ward against melee, and a spell or stance that lowers your hit rate by 75%? Couple that with the Hammers slow attack rate, you have easily and effectively been shut down (keep and mind these skills are usually spammable).

I take it you don't mean the tombs. Because most people bring cater counters there.
To counter blocks and evade either bring seeking blade, Irresistable Blow, Swift chop or Warriors cunning. Blindness either have the teams monk (Or if ur seccondary is a monk do it yourself) remove it. Plauge touch is also great for this. There are ways to counter everything.

CaptainGuru · Jul 15, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I wish I could repost all the reason why warriors suck from the other forum. Though many may argue that warriors don't such, I yet to see good argue on why don't. All I get is example of how a warrior player took out a noob player. I have yet to see on this forum or any other forum, post that say "warriorz r 2 uber."

Warriors suck for 3 reasons...

1) There no other melee classes in this game. With no other melee class, there is no one to challenge you to fight grudge. Rangers and spellcasters aren't much of a fight because they don't fight back, they just inflict a condition or hex that cripples you and flee, making combat frustrating and tedious. Some people just give up and making the warrior more of a caster than actual warrior which why you are starting to see so many W/E with long abilities and W/R with bows. ONE of the reasons I wanted to get rid of the snares and stances from Ranger was this very reason.

2) Any damage they do can easily be healed away by a monk, reduced through armor/spells or avoid through stance/enchantment. Unless the monk has been cursed to do less healing or shutdown/disable, there is no way for the warrior to kill the monk with pure damage. It's been said that equipment doesn't matter in GW, which is why the warrior suffers so much in the damage depart. To make matters worse, GW gets the bright idea to give rangers stances and spellcasters abilities to increase armor value or reduce physical damage to ridiculous amounts.

This handicaps the warrior further and makes it hard for the warrior be useful. Take ward against melee; for example. WAM last 18 seconds and take 20 seconds to recharge. By the time spell ends, it almost time to cast it again. I've had a E/Mo cycle through WAM and spell was to hard to predict when it ended because during this time you were sitting duck to other attacks. Those who claim that there is no imbalance with such issues are the very same people abusing such moves and tactics.

Believe me, I and others have argue this same point out and we are told to learn to play better by other players who obviously are the very people who spam cast these moves.

3) Chaining. Chaining healing, chaining condition or chain hex makes a warrior next to useless. If a monk chain heals, you'll be there all day trying to kill them as a warrior. If a warrior is condition by a ranger (bleed, poison, cripple, etc.) he'll a sitting ducks while his friend's get slaughter. And finally if he chain hexed, he'll die within a couple of second due to DOTs. Aside from Lightning attacks, DOTs can easily by bypass a warriors armor, doing damage without reduce and cause other negative effects like reducing a warrior's attack speed or zap his energy. Because it's so easy for 5 out of 6 of the classes to do from a distance the warrior is at HUGE disadvantage and the only way for the warrior to have a chance against any of these character someone has to open a window of opporunity for him. As Invader said in my topic, a monk will mend aliment if a warrior is crippled or condition, but without that monk (For whatever reason that monk isn't present to help the warrior), he is pretty much a sitting duck.

CaptainGuru · Jul 15, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomasuwoo

I take it you don't mean the tombs. Because most people bring cater counters there.
To counter blocks and evade either bring seeking blade, Irresistable Blow, Swift chop or Warriors cunning. Blindness either have the teams monk (Or if ur seccondary is a monk do it yourself) remove it. Plauge touch is also great for this. There are ways to counter everything.

How many warriors in arena, tombs, and GvG have you seen used this move? Honestly, I wanted to know how many people in your group or random groups have you seen use those move? Most warriors don't even have hamstring or axe rake.

I wish I could repost my experiences in Arena mode about how effective warrirors were in pvp. Honestly, if I can find the topic, I will post the link up for you to read because in a lot of worse case scenarios warriors were down right useless if they used certain builds, used certain weapons or didn't have certain moves.

jon__ · Jul 15, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Warriors use brute-force tactics, they take and deal damage CONSISTENTLY, much more so than the other classes. Warriors can cripple opponents who attempt to flee, but a lot of their value (in PVP) comes from the ability to independently harass casters or even hardened targets such as other warriors. All the cantrips in the world won't work if they're countered -- you'll still be pounded on by an angry sword- (or axe, or hammer) wielding maniac. And while you're running away or using your stance/whatever, the warrior's teammates are shutting down your monks and laying a strategy that will enable them to win.

So basically, your post is full of ignorance of the way things work.

Shadow_Avenger · Jul 15, 2005, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainGuru

I wish I could repost all the reason why warriors suck from the other forum. Though many may argue that warriors don't such, I yet to see good argue on why don't. All I get is example of how a warrior player took out a noob player. I have yet to see on this forum or any other forum, post that say "warriorz r 2 uber."

Warriors suck for 3 reasons...

1) There no other melee classes in this game. With no other melee class, there is no one to challenge you to fight grudge. Rangers and spellcasters aren't much of a fight because they don't fight back, they just inflict a condition or hex that cripples you and flee, making combat frustrating and tedious. Some people just give up and making the warrior more of a caster than actual warrior which why you are starting to see so many W/E with long abilities and W/R with bows. ONE of the reasons I wanted to get rid of the snares and stances from Ranger was this very reason.

2) Any damage they do can easily be healed away by a monk, reduced through armor/spells or avoid through stance/enchantment. Unless the monk has been cursed to do less healing or shutdown/disable, there is no way for the warrior to kill the monk with pure damage. It's been said that equipment doesn't matter in GW, which is why the warrior suffers so much in the damage depart. To make matters worse, GW gets the bright idea to give rangers stances and spellcasters abilities to increase armor value or reduce physical damage to ridiculous amounts.

This handicaps the warrior further and makes it hard for the warrior be useful. Take ward against melee; for example. WAM last 18 seconds and take 20 seconds to recharge. By the time spell ends, it almost time to cast it again. I've had a E/Mo cycle through WAM and spell was to hard to predict when it ended because during this time you were sitting duck to other attacks. Those who claim that there is no imbalance with such issues are the very same people abusing such moves and tactics.

Believe me, I and others have argue this same point out and we are told to learn to play better by other players who obviously are the very people who spam cast these moves.

3) Chaining. Chaining healing, chaining condition or chain hex makes a warrior next to useless. If a monk chain heals, you'll be there all day trying to kill them as a warrior. If a warrior is condition by a ranger (bleed, poison, cripple, etc.) he'll a sitting ducks while his friend's get slaughter. And finally if he chain hexed, he'll die within a couple of second due to DOTs. Aside from Lightning attacks, DOTs can easily by bypass a warriors armor, doing damage without reduce and cause other negative effects like reducing a warrior's attack speed or zap his energy. Because it's so easy for 5 out of 6 of the classes to do from a distance the warrior is at HUGE disadvantage and the only way for the warrior to have a chance against any of these character someone has to open a window of opporunity for him. As Invader said in my topic, a monk will mend aliment if a warrior is crippled or condition, but without that monk (For whatever reason that monk isn't present to help the warrior), he is pretty much a sitting duck.

On point 1, sure they are the only melee class, but they far from suck. They are the easiest class to PvP with. You will get bet by a player with the right skills.
i.e. 9 wins in competative arena on the 10th figthing another warrior, but this one has a defensive stance and my warrior was not equiped for it, i loss.
My ranger will go toe to toe with any warrior, mel arrows, duel shot, destracting shot, phantom pain and cunjor phantasm = 10 degen and Im hitting you for 30-70 dam, that with either tigers furry, or my favourate, but not as spammable dodge mean 33% faster attack. If I have favourable winds nearby they majority of warriors fall over and die. Troll urgent at 10 regen helps alot

2, thats where tactics come in, if a single warrior could out damage a healing monk, there would be no point at all in having a healing monk. But a warrior can actually tie up a monk very well, preventing them from healing their team, so that the rest can kill the others more easily.
The damage output is nowhere near as bad as you make out. Warriors do more substained constant damage than any other class.
Casters do spike damage, but heavily rely on power, so in a long battle they become helpless.
Rangers are the odd ball class, as a well built ranger can either be a damage spiker like the caster classes or substained constant damage like a warrior.
Warriors by far have the best AC / damage reduction and as such have a far greater survivability factor in PvE as well.

As for point 3, thats the same for all classes, if you PC gets targeted, you are going to die, unless you have a awesome healler / 2 healer team to back you up.

Aranador · Jul 15, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

On the other hand - being a warrior has a pronounced and severe effect on everyone else.

Shutting down a warrior is 'easy' - IF you bring along the skills. So you stuff your skill bar with a slow, and a weakness, and a AC buff, and a damage reducing buff, and a snare.

You have rendered your enemy warrior impotent, and half your skill bar along with it - leaving you much less to deal with the 'real' threats.

You know what happens to a caster that doesnt do something to stop a warrior? They get butchered. And then they get called a noob.

The very presence of a warrior forces the other team to bring skills specifically to reduce that warrior to a non threat. If warriors were useless as you say, then people would truely igore them, but they dont ignore them, they spend effort to disable them.

The fact that disabling casters is a lot harder doesnt make casters more powerful, or warriors weaker - rather it points out that warriors are actually a much greater threat if they are uncountered.

By the way - monks heal damage from elementalists too, they dont just foil warriors.

You really want to be feared by casters? Bring a hammer and learn how to knock lock someone.

Just remember that for every character that can 'pwn' a specific class, there is someone that is 'pwned' by that class, and another class that will 'pwn' the first character.

Because there have been way too many Wa/Mos arount, the fact that people bring powers that make them useless is no surprise at all. But by making the people bring counters to Wa/Mos, the Wa/Mos succeed in forcing those people to leave behind their counters so something else.

Malchiel · Jul 15, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_Avenger

Casters do spike damage, but heavily rely on power, so in a long battle they become helpless.

Have you looked up many of the elmentalists elite? I can tell you, I don't have energy problem. Never ever. Unless there's a mez draining me continously. I can pretty much cast lightning orb sun up to sun down all day long, as many times as I need to, with nearly zero downtime.

Bongo2k · Jul 15, 2005, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Warriors are tanks, simple as that. You cant have one profession that can tank and do damage at the same time. If so it would negate the need for any other professions because everyone would go warrior seeing as they can take damage and do alot of damage.

Have you tried being a monk in pve? Its almost impossible to survive anything that attacks you simply because your primary role is healing, and seeing as you can only cap 2 attributes then you can either be a healer, protector or smiter. Or just forget divine favour and make half your healing spells pointless.

Aranador · Jul 15, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malchiel

Have you looked up many of the elmentalists elite? I can tell you, I don't have energy problem. Never ever. Unless there's a mez draining me continously. I can pretty much cast lightning orb sun up to sun down all day long, as many times as I need to, with nearly zero downtime.

What about the exhaustion factor, that is lowering your max energy? Not supposed to be a spiteful question, I havnt played ele much and I want to know how to deal with the exhaustion

Legendary Battousai · Jul 15, 2005, 08:33 AM // 08:33

if you know the true art of using a soloist warrior in pve, you would understand that you must be a tank... there are many skills that a warrior has to complement it while also dealing out damage [gladiator's defence] that doesnt rely on being blinded, weakend, or hexed to hell. if someone attacks you, they pay for it. as for spell casters, its called savage slash; disruption chop; distracing blow; and knockdowns. if you can reach your monster before they start castin those nasty spells, you can just as easily shut them down as they do you. my warrior does fine solo because of this. the point of being a warrior is really to take hits and still dish out consistant damage. though, any build can be shut down, i dont thing warriors are easiest to be shut down, because any warrior can shut you down [or up] just as quickly

also in reply to you bongo, try the invincimonk build, its in the campfire build discussion under less health = good tell me more thread. look at my post, and i own the underworld by myself. never underestimate the power of a monk!

Calimar · Jul 15, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Remember also that any other build's shutdown ability depends on various skill dedicated to class: you can blind, cripple, weaken and pacify a warrior, but you need a complete different set of spells for a caster. Take a warrior: knock down target, interruption shots, adrenaline instead of energy: completely different.
Has anyone thought how much adrenaline does towards preventing energy-denial shutdowns?

BrokenSymmetry · Jul 15, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aranador

Because there have been way too many Wa/Mos arount, the fact that people bring powers that make them useless is no surprise at all. But by making the people bring counters to Wa/Mos, the Wa/Mos succeed in forcing those people to leave behind their counters so something else.

This is well said. The simple fact that there are so many warriors around, means that almost everyone will bring specific counters against Warriors. This, of course, leaves them defenseless against other professions, but when (in the random Arenas) you are sure to always be up against a few warriors, bringing anti-warrior skills is only common sense.